geopay scale - discussion thread

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction) 10/12/2020 at 16:55 • Filed to: None

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Saw a headline saying that Microsoft is going to let more employees WFH, but:

while Microsoft employees will be allowed to move across country for remote work, compensation and benefits will change and vary depending on the company’s own geopay scale.

Meaning you’ll get a (massive?) pay cut if you move your primary residence from Redmond to Kalamazoo, I assume.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

I assume there is some percentage of salary that’s considered “cost of living”, and that percentage is taken times the multiplier to determine the salary in each location.

So, the question is this: does the higher pay in these high cost-of-living cities ever really make up for the true cost of living?

Who’s made the move from high cost of living to low (or vice versa)? Any regrets? Are the benefits of the big city (or access to mountains/ocean) worth the high costs, in your mind, in a better quality of life?

(Clearly, there’s no right answer for everyone, but this discussion may be useful for some Opponauts early in their careers as they’re charting their own courses over the next months and years.)

Personally, I’m torn. As much as I’d love living closer to the mountains, it’s hard to beat the low cost of living in the medium-sized metro we live in.

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For Sweden > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 16:56

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Microsoft paying landlords instead of employees smh

WilliamsSW > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:01

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- Move to Keokuk, Iowa

- tell MotherShip you’re living in the Marina District

- Run wifi connection through SF-based VPN

- Profit

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:02

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Vacationed in Denver last summer. I immediately understand the appeal of living near mountains. But ouch was everything way more expensive. 

I’ll stick with the stupid low cost of living in Dayton, Ohio compared to Denver. 

facw > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:04

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Renting vs. owning makes a big difference. If it’s more expensive because you are spending more on a mortgage, you are still building equity in an asset you can sell when you move to recover a lot of those higher living costs. If you are renting you are just out that money, and so living in high-cost areas doesn’t work out as well.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > For Sweden 10/12/2020 at 17:04

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Is MS going to make in-person cold calls at employees’ primary residences to make sure they actually live there?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 10/12/2020 at 17:05

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And you didn’t even look at home prices.

According to their July 2020 report, the average price of a home in the Denver metro area in July was $539,340, a year-over-year increase of 9%.

VincentMalamute-Kim > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 10/12/2020 at 17:08

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E veryone has their priorities . I moved from Milwaukee to the Front Range three years ago. No regrets.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:08

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Geopay? You Americans are nucking futs if you even go along with that...the general work and the skills & experience required to do a job is much the same regardless of where you live, therefore the pay should be the same no matter where you live.

In Oz, the awards set the basic pay rate and then the employer adds on top (if they want to) in terms of pay or leave conditions to incentivise for additional skills and experience or compensate for a remote location. The only incentive that our Federal government offers is a tax break worth up to $1 ,500 if you are working in a truly remote location.

In most government jobs, pay  is based purely on the job. Not the location. So it’s very possible to be on a very decent managerial wage in a country town where property prices average little more than three times ones annual wage...we know this through experience!

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:08

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I work remotely from AZ for a company based in SF, CA. Without living here, I wouldn’t be able to have the garage that I do (which I love. ) Living costs are much lower, whether we go out to eat or shop for groceries or pay rent/mortgage. B ut I can tell directly that not living in SF until very recently has indirectly cost me advancement in my career. It is much harder to get your point across over a Zoom if someone is in the room answering the questions before you can. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > facw 10/12/2020 at 17:10

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Yeah, rental rates in expensive cities are healthy mortgage payments in inexpensive cities... Over time, t he opportunity costs are huge.

jminer > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:10

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We’ve decided living somewhere cheap (St Louis MO) isn’t worth it anymore. Yeah housing and gas is cheap as hell here but the quality of life trade offs aren’t worth it to us anymore.

I started a new job in the SF Bay Area (remotely for 2 weeks) today. I’m excited as hell to move to a larger area with more things to do inside (in a year) and close to both mountains and ocean.

Yes it’s more expensive but I’m also making almost 50% more out there and it looks like expenses will come out to a wash vs here.  I’ll take it!

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:11

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Doing so was always going to end in tears. Our ~$180k, 2100 Sq Ft home in an established neighborhood with lots of tree cover and 0.33 acre lot is likely to be at least 3x as much out there. And we currently can walk to a full grocery store. Granted it’s a local, upscale chain (think Whole Foods before Bezos); and while we rarely do walk there, it is a wonderful privilege to have and one of the reasons we bought the house. 

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > VincentMalamute-Kim 10/12/2020 at 17:13

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We have family tying us to the area. So it was never really an honest consideration. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jminer 10/12/2020 at 17:13

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Well done! Happy for you. Hope you’re just as pleased with your decision in 5 years (sounds like you will be).

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/12/2020 at 17:14

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Very good point.

For Sweden > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:16

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Why would they need cold calls they already know everything about everyone

phenotyp > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:17

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Man, that’s a super hard one. That I’ve struggled with forever. I’ve hauled everything I am over icy mountains to get to a promised land that turned out not to be so promising, moved from paradise to purgatory, later back to something I’d hoped would be a new future, then failed back to build something better that didn’t need location, and now, who knows.

The work I’ve done and put a huge amount of effort into caring about is really daunting— from giants like MS, Dell, HP, etc, to startups that went nowhere no matter how nice the product was, not to mention the details and implications of every decision.

I just want the world to realize that there are people who will help make the world better, and it doesn’t matter where they are on the globe. The problem is finding them. That’s both an easy and a very difficult thing.

(can you tell that I’m working on some portfolio stuff for a job?)

CB > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:18

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I left Toronto for love and to find work since I hated working in a grocery store. Where I live now, my base pay is about 20% lower for equivalent work. However, my cost of living is significantly less and I have no commute. Work life balance is awful, though.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 10/12/2020 at 17:19

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Interesting.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > For Sweden 10/12/2020 at 17:19

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Big Brother is watching.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:20

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My dad has kept his primary residence as the ranch he grew up on in Montana. All the vehicles etc.. all there. My aunt moved up there with my grandma years ago and she does all the mailing etc.. for him. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CB 10/12/2020 at 17:20

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Hmm... best of luck finding balance!

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/12/2020 at 17:21

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I live in Marin and I wish I had a garage, I also can’t work at all since I work on shows, so I am just waiting these days.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > phenotyp 10/12/2020 at 17:22

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Hope you finally find it. Best of luck!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 10/12/2020 at 17:25

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Interesting - do you think he’ll end up back there eventually?

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:25

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Government hack here, so I can weigh in! We get paid this way.

It really, really depends. In most cases: no, the salary is not sufficient to make a good living anywhere, and the locality adjustments are insufficient.

For example: Las Vegas, Cheyenne Wyoming, Chattanooga TN, Youngstown Oh, and Portland ME all have similar pay scales. Costs of living in those cities is dramatically different (side note: houses in Wyoming are shockingly expensive).

I’m exceptionally fortunate to work in the farthest-from-NY but still in the payband county. It’s great but it’s still just barely enough to scrape by owning a home as a single person.

My gf lives a ways away in a much cheaper area. I can split the difference and live in a very affordable place, and still telecommute and keep my NYC pay. However, even then, it’s barely enough to afford a small home and car payment on your own. And I’m in the top tier of government paychecks.

I also used to live in Santa Fe and miss the mountains ever day. There’s no better balance of cheap living, good access to resources, and pretty nature than northern NM. That being said...living there isn’t quite as cheap anymore, but that’s kinda the case anywhere. Trying to find a liveable single family home anywhere for less than $200k is basically a pipe dream now.   

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:25

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It’s all fun and games until that housing market bursts.

Just Jeepin' > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 10/12/2020 at 17:25

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I wouldn’t talk much about that on  the Internet, given that sounds suspiciously fraudulent.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:27

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Jesus. An d I thought the tiny huts going for 300k in Minneapolis was bad.

jminer > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:27

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Thanks! Not sure we’ll still be there in 5 years but we’ll see. We’ve lived here for 11 years and that’s too long to stay in one place.

I am pretty sure we’ll enjoy it out there, we’re both really excited!

CB > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:28

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Gonna take another move for that one, bud!

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Just Jeepin' 10/12/2020 at 17:32

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H e splits his time there , he is also a lawyer.  The crooks who have a super car in NYC with MT plates should be reported. He owns way more property etc.. there than he does in CO so even on paper. At least he drives there every couple months, I can’t just drive back to Hawaii and claim residency while I’m here. 

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 10/12/2020 at 17:35

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As an aside, Marin is lovely every time I’ve been 

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/12/2020 at 17:37

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Oh I love it, we hike almost every day, surf, kayak. I’m from Hawaii and I think West Marin is one of the most beautiful places on Earth. I just wish I could have a small house with a backyard and garage. I’m not asking for a mansion! 

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > facw 10/12/2020 at 17:38

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Although I'm willing to bet real estate on both coasts is a massive bubble right now.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:38

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A lot of M icrosoft employees in Redmond/Eastside have multigenerational households; the grandparents watch the kids, the parents both work full time white-collar gigs . Doubling the income with no real overhead for child care — unless you hate living with your parents (turns out many Americans do). Not an option for everyone.

facw > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 10/12/2020 at 17:40

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Could be. Persistent low interest rates will do that. Though it might be more than the coasts.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 10/12/2020 at 17:48

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I’ve been to Hawaii as well. You sure do know how to pick the regions! It’s just a shame houses out there start in the 7 digit range.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/12/2020 at 17:57

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Well my mom has our house there, it wasn’t always like that. Same with Marin in some parts, but nothing is excluded now. There are a c ouple rough parts of Oahu you don’t want to live! Oahu is a mess, I will never live on that island again, perhaps Kauai or da big one, my mom is on Kauai with her friend most of the time.

The Snowman > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 17:58

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I grew up in the central valley of CA and spent some time in SF for college. The valley has been swallowed up by bay area commuters and driven prices way up but local wages have not increased anywhere near the same rate. So in late 2013  I packed my life into my Jeep xj and drove to SLC UT. I love it here and the cost of living vs wages seem to be a good balance. After 6 years here we are on our second house with 200,000+ in equity and getting ready to move to central Italy when the borders reopen. Fortunately we can rent our home here for enough to cover the mortgage and our rent+utilities in Italy. We plan on working remotely for American companies and the region we will live in has an average income of €27000 so if one of us is making our current salary we will be right around average and if we can both work full time we will be able to save some serious money while traveling all over Europe for a couple years.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 18:02

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Wow that sounds absurdly cheap. That means theres plenty of $400-500k houses. That is a 50% discount versus here in Socal!

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 18:07

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My rent of $1200 a month (all utils included) is VERY cheap for my area. But this is for a room for rent, not even my own place! Granted I have my own bathroom, a lovely view, and a short sub 15 minute commute through a beautiful area of the PCH to work. But man I could have a decent mortgage in most places for only a little bit more. Ive never lived anywhere cheap though so I dont really know what its like. NJ was a little bit cheaper but I was still splitting a $1400 2 bedroom with no hope of ever buying there either.

I could never ever live somewhere flat if thats what it took to save money. Money isnt everything to me, I would end up wasting more of it on extravagant vacations if I lived somewhere flat. But theres plenty of “compromise” places though for sure where I can have mountains and save a boatload of money. Just also need to have a job and access to an international airport and I am set. As an engineer at least im not too limited. Someday I shall make that move rather than squalloring away to buy a shack 2 hours from work around here...

fintail > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 18:09

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I just took a position in Spokane, moving from Redmond-adjacent . Marginal pay decrease, benefits increase, significant housing cost  decrease, and I won’t get started on the traffic. The east side of the state isn’t for everyone, especially in terms of climate and politics once one gets out of the developed areas, but I think it will attract more as time goes on. This may be my chance to actually buy a house - something pretty tough for single income post-boomers not attached to the bank of mommy and daddy (I mean boot straps and building it yourself).

subexpression > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 18:12

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Every time I’ve considered moving to another part of the US it has looked like +50% cost of living wa s probably only going to get me +20% or so pay (at best) for the same kind of work. I’ve known people who moved and loved it, but o ne of the groups I used to work with had a whole series of people who moved to another office with a pay raise and came back because it wasn’t worth it to have to live there .

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 10/12/2020 at 18:15

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Hey thanks for the tip. Wife and I are discussing going back to HI next year, and wasn’t sure if we should switch up islands. I’ve been to both Maui and Kauai and I had a good time, but I’ll avoid Oahu then. Maybe we’ll stomp around Kona for a while. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 10/12/2020 at 18:16

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The thing is that when a house costs $1mil at the beach versus $200k out in the sticks, it seems rather odd to get paid the same. Sure other things like food, gas, and entertainment are pretty different in price too, but those are miniscule in comparison to housing. Mortgage/rent are generally the biggest expense anyone has and the cost of living difference generally doesnt even make up for it. That 5x cost in housing means that you make more in net pay (after housing) even if you make way less salary. Sure its made up for by “things to do” and other nice stuff. But you sure do pay for it! I think its less so that you make less for living somewhere cheaper and more that you are paid a little bit more to offset living someplace expensive.

PowderHound > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 18:17

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I moved to a high demand area with not many high paying jobs just so I could be in the mountains . I mak e enough to get by but that is living with other people and sort of with the understanding I will never actually be able to buy anything and settle down here. I could easily do my job remotely but it would never fly with management. I would love to move somewhere cheaper that has similar outdoor amenities but there doesn’t seem to be many that has jobs and hasn’ t seen home prices drastically rise to beyond affordable.

Chariotoflove > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 18:40

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So, the question is this: does the higher pay in these high cost-of-living cities ever really make up for the true cost of living?

Short answer: no.

At least not in my experience. But then, I didn’t get the benefit of any “geopay scale” calculations. Never even heard of it when I was looking for jobs. Here is one extreme case. When I was looking for a postdoc back in 2000, I was offered one at UC Irvine, one at Hunter College on Manhattan, and one at UT Southwestern in Dallas. There were other offers, but this spreads the country. The pay was going to be the same, $40K. This was because of a grant I could get from the NIH. The University of California system wouldn’t even let the boss at Irvine give me that entire $40K I could bring in because the UC System had a scale for starting postdocs regardless of which component, and it wasn’t that high, something like $36K. Hunter College was out of the question once I looked up what it costs to live on Manhattan in a wheelchair. Guess which job I took.

If I were to move now, I would not move to either coast unless I was offered stupid money because I like the quality of life I get in a nice neighborhood with a house and garage, and a nearby city that’s big enough but not too big. I can get that at lots of Universities without an ocean view.

Chariotoflove > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 10/12/2020 at 18:44

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Trying to find a liveable single family home anywhere for less than $200k is basically a pipe dream now.

I know a couple of places, but they’re definitely not near the mountains.

SiennaMan > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 10/12/2020 at 18:53

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$500k near Dayton will buy you a mcmansion, complete with 3 car garage and a few acres of lawn.

If you don't mind driving a couple minutes to a grocery you could also prioritize a modest house on land with a barn and start the collection that will be true "barn finds" 30-50 years from now..

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 18:59

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We used to do this math for HP “back in the day”, who had this policy for their far flung divisions in “cheaper CA”, Washington, Idaho Colorado. etc.

The conclusion was always to “take the lower pay and the lower cost of living” since The Bay Area was kicking your ass in all the little, hard-to-quantify ways... not just state tax rates, sales tax rates, gas tax rates, absolute property taxes, time wasted in traffic... the list goes on and on.  Once you simplify to a real state you realize how many ways CA was picking your pocket.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 19:01

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Anybody that’s truly honest about the math will come to the same conclusion—- it’s a “death by a 1000 cuts” with CA.

I’ve yet to meet any refugee who really wanted to move back.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 10/12/2020 at 19:04

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probably why coastal real estate is so high

ranwhenparked > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 20:10

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I work in the field, but used to report to a regional office in Maryland. When my company closed that office, I switched to reporting to a supervisor in New Jersey, and automatically received a cost of living increase, since NJ is a higher cost state than MD, and, apparently, everyone in the same office had to be on the same scale. I never physically relocated myself, have always had a lower cost of living than either of those states, and the funny thing is, the same week I got that COL increase memo, my county sent me a notice that my house had been reassessed, and that my property taxes were being slightly reduced.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > The Snowman 10/12/2020 at 20:23

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Very cool plan, great goal to work towards! Curious - do you have Italian citizenship? We have a goal of doing an international stint at some point over the next few years too, but visas are one of the main issues. Easiest way would probably be to move with current employer, but that limits us to where we can go in addition to making certain career moves I might not otherwise make for it to happen. 

DipodomysDeserti > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 10/12/2020 at 20:27

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Visit Denver right now and the air quality and traffic will keep you away.

I love mountains, but Denver kind of ruins them.

The Snowman > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/12/2020 at 20:27

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Im in the process of claiming  Italian citizenship currently getting all my paperwork translated and when the border opens I just go on regular tourist rules and go to the police station and fill stuff out.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > fintail 10/12/2020 at 20:27

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Congrats, sounds like great things ahead of you! And spot on about the eastern side of the state...the Spokane area is certainly beautiful, but woohoo there are some interesting groups out there. But I’m hoping this is what keeps happening to places like Idaho, Wyoming, etc. as cost of living goes up elsewhere. If we want national politics to represent the will of the majority of the people, the easiest way that is going to happen is by people actually moving (especially to some of the less populated states)...will be a hell of a lot easier than changing some built in biases in the system itself. And hey maybe that will help spread the wealth and benefits of modern life to broader portions of the population too. 

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/12/2020 at 21:25

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Yeah it’s nice, my friend is from the Kona side, my family started on the Hilo side in 1856. Most of them went to Oahu or SF actually so I have some family here. They used to send the women to SF to have the babies so they would be American.

You should go to Wainanali’i Pond/Kiholo Bay, its got a lot of turtles, it is an old royal fishing pond that is open to the sea now. There are some lava tubes off the beach down from there with a ladder, water is cold but fresh and it’s fun to swim through the tubes. The Paul Mitchell teak house is along there too, he had it all made and brought there and rebuilt.

Ask me whateves, I can tell you what is what brah! I can tell you good spots on Oahu if you had to be there but I would avoid it as a planned trip. 

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 10/12/2020 at 21:30

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Where you live should not be a criteria for what you are paid. End of story. Otherwise, you are accepting an inequality  way of life that keeps the people in their place and the poor stay poor and the rich stay rich rather than swapping around occasionally. Is that really the American way?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/12/2020 at 22:32

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A) what is so bright in Montana/ND? fracking wells?

B) in regards to teh article, grass is always greener on the other side. I can see minor shifts but I think a lot of people have really skewed impressions.

My old company has a couple plants in the midwest and they alaways have problem getting talent out there. They would try to rotate engineers out and even with the 1/2 cost of living and 2/3 to 3/4 salary, they couldnt get people to stay.

I took a job out of college at a large corporation 45 min outside the city. I moved a couple months later. The majority of my coworkers stilled lived. A lot of fun, but it was like twice as much as i was spending.

I know 4 people who have moved to the “promised land” florida. One couple late 50s who kept going how much cheaper it is “look how much home we can get” “ well yeah, but what about your income? ” she left a job that she had been at for 20+ years with 5 weeks and then shocked she couldn’t find any equival en t.

Other couple, young 30s. he wanted some libertarian paradise, her moving for work. Get down there he cant find anything more than 50% of the job he left. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 10/12/2020 at 23:42

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I suppose it goes hand in hand with so many other oddities of America. Particularly tipping culture in restaurants or the horrible work/life balance that people get into. Tipping is an obvious ridiculousness that will never go away and seems to work just fine in the rest of the world without it. Ive had way more issues with waitstaff in the US than anywhere in Europe too so its not like its much of an incentive. The work/life balance thing is depressing. I dont have that problem but so many people would think a 40 hour work week would be a blessing compared to their usual 60, 70, or even 80+. I want to work to live not live to work!

But yeah American culture is weird. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 10/12/2020 at 23:49

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Parts of Oahu can be nice . The north shore is cool if the surf is big. The island is kind of a different experience, a giant city plopped onto a tropical island. I had family out there for 4 years, and theyd complain and then as soon as they leave, a month later “i want to go back”. You just have to remember that its home to 3/4 mil people living their lives and a bunch of other tourists. I woundn’t go for a whole week.

But if it wasn’t for family I’d rather go to Kauai or Maui. Haven’t seen the Big island yet.

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/13/2020 at 01:06

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Fingers crossed, thanks! I pretty much like it here already, I have family pretty close by, the pace is a lot more mellow, and I like the drier weather. Spokane in the city is at least somewhat purple - plenty of Biden stickers and signs, but go 10 miles out and it can be a bit different in many ways. And get into Idaho, all bets are off lol. There will be an evolution, slow, but it will happen, as you say, people are on the move, and jobs will come with.  Huge new Amazon center just outside of the city here, and it doesn’t seem to be taking the same flack as in other areas.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 10/13/2020 at 09:33

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LOL

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 10/13/2020 at 09:35

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I can’t believe that this is just an American thing. Almost every big international business has to take into account the cost of living where they’re asking their employees to reside.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 10/13/2020 at 09:37

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Alaska - LOL

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > The Snowman 10/13/2020 at 09:39

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Awesome - well done!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 10/13/2020 at 09:40

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I love northern NM.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 10/13/2020 at 09:42

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Yep.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 10/13/2020 at 09:46

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Williston, ND - probably not quite as bright anymore.

https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2013/01/16/169511949/a-mysterious-patch-of-light-shows-up-in-the-north-dakota-dark

Yes, everyone always wants what they don’t/can’t have.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 10/13/2020 at 09:48

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I would trade a lot for your view and commute.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ranwhenparked 10/13/2020 at 09:48

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LOL -  that’s great!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 10/13/2020 at 09:52

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Yep.

It’s just bonkers for me to think how little the money we spent on home in OK (big, modern house on 10 acres, pool, pond, 30x50 shop) would buy in the Bay Area or other ridiculously expensive locale. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PowderHound 10/13/2020 at 09:53

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We all make trade-offs. I hope you find the right place & job before long.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > subexpression 10/13/2020 at 09:54

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Yep.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 10/13/2020 at 09:56

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Interesting - that’s a good solution if you can make it work.

How many have separate living quarters on one lot?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 10/13/2020 at 09:56

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Good luck selling a condo in NYC right now.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/13/2020 at 11:46

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Just gotta be an aspiring actor/actress and work as a waiter/waitress, like so many other barely-not-homeless people out here. Except with covid restrictions both of those options are EXTREMELY difficult to do right now. Idk how some people are surviving right now that were barely making ends meet before. Makes me feel bad for having a secure job. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 10/13/2020 at 11:54

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Don’t feel bad having a secure job, just be overly generous with your tipping these days (if you can).

This is so sad to see ... and in one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8343551/Shocking-pictures-tent-cities-alongside-LA-freeways.html

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > fintail 10/13/2020 at 11:56

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Yup change will come, and it will be painful and hard fought but I’m confident it will come one day...if that day is soon enough to prevent many other bad things from happening, who knows.

The current supreme court nomination is a good reminder...one side of the aisle has been excellent (if I could use that term) at being relentless and playing a long game. The other has always been wishy washy - they stand for certain feel good things, but there is little of concrete substance that MAKES voters turn out to cast their ballots no matter what. A 6-3 conservative majority may undo a lot of progress over the coming years - and that will be horrific to many - but I also hope that it will make people realize how important it is to vote people who represent their beliefs all the way down the ballot. And with time, along with the demographic changes happening, we’ll be able to change the bias in congress, and actually get meaningful laws and constitutional amendments passed so a judge [ appointed by a madman who lost the national popular vote by 3 million votes, and won the electoral college by 77k votes in 3 states combined] cannot do this much irreparable harm. All this is a great yet very painful reminder of how fragile a country is and how we all need to keep working at maintaining a democracy.

I still blame damn Green party voters. Libertarians, at least they’re stuck in the middle between two ideologies and can’t choose between them - but those who voted for Stein in 2016 and Nader in 2000 - they achieved absolutely nothing and harmed their supposed priorities even further beyond belief (and numerically can be proven to have cost the Ds the election) . These two elections show that even right now the will of the people is already, if barely, tilted in the direction I hope for. We’re just really really bad at herding these cats and making them understand the gravity of everything at stake .

OK that spiraled. Congrats on your move and new life - hope it’s excellent for you out there. Any changes in what it means to your fleet?

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > The Snowman 10/13/2020 at 12:00

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Very cool! For a quick second we thought my wife might be able to claim Irish citizenship based on ancestry, but alas that wasn’t the case as her family are “two boat Irish” and her grand parents weren’t born back in the old country. 

The Snowman > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/13/2020 at 12:07

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What is "two boat Irish" a quick Google didn't enlighten me.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 10/13/2020 at 12:15

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I will definitely hit you up for that when we get to the planning stages, appreciate it.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 10/13/2020 at 12:17

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Good to think about. I prefer quieter tourist areas so I'll definitely factor what you are saying into my final decision. 

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > The Snowman 10/13/2020 at 13:00

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ha no clue if its an actual phrase, but have heard a few folks in New England use it. Story goes that these are people who were too poor to afford a boat ticket directly to the US during the hard times , so they were able to get as far as Nova Scotia or thereabouts, spent a generation or so there working and saving up more money, and then the subsequent generation made the hop over to the land of the free.

So in my wife’s case her grand parents were actually Canadian born, and not technically Irish, for her to claim citizenship through them.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/13/2020 at 17:26

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They do... otherwise they won’t get the right person for the job. But that’s a business risk and is on them. There’s no way it’s a practice that should be mandated. Nor should it (for equity sake if nothing else ) vary within a business for the same job/same work/same skills based only on where someone lives.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 10/13/2020 at 17:42

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I get the idea of equal pay for equal work, but if it costs one employee twice as much to just live in one place compared with another, and they both get paid the same, it’s not exactly equal, is it?

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/13/2020 at 18:08

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Where you choose to live is generally a personal choice. If you lived in a cheap area and wanted to do the same job but live in a better area and be paid more to do it then your employer would say get stuffed. On the other hand, if you were paid well but wanted to shift to a cheaper area whilst doing the same job and your employer said you should be paid less then you’d be saying get stuffed...

In the end, you should be paid what you are worth and what you are worth to the organisation. Where you live does not dictate what you are worth.

We get paid the same as people doing the same job in a capital city despite living in a small country town...and we take all the financial (houses are a quarter the price) and lifestyle benefits we can from that. If we were paid less than our city colleagues to do the same job ...why would we make ourselves available to do this work here in the first place? We’d go where we were most ‘ valued’ by our employer...

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/13/2020 at 21:07

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It’s hard to beat demographics - you can fight it and gerrymander it and repress it, but even partisan SC appointees eventually die off, and things change. The background of the population is changing, and eventually, everything will change with it. Sadly, the current regime is likely to stop progress for a generation or two. The US is now a laughingstock among legitimately developed nations, and the current regime is behind it.

I also blame the Berniebros and the dipshits who didn’t want 45, but refused to vote, for this mess. Libertarians in my eyes seem to be somewhat right wingers who are afraid to announce their alignment with the GOP, and I suspect many of them still vote that way, no matter what they say - much of the platform is based on dishonest, in my opinion anyway.

The old car is still on the other side of the mountains, I might fly over and drive it back this weekend.  Otherwise, no immediate changes.  I am definitely not unhappy to be here, burned out on the Puget Sound rat race - not saying this place is perfect, but it is a refreshing change.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 10/14/2020 at 09:52

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I’m very happy for you that you get the benefits of good pay in an inexpensive place. H onestly, I’m fortunate to have the same situation. That’s said, I would not begrudge an employer who paid someone doing the same work as me more if they lived in Denver, for example. That just seems fair for me. The point of this post, and many of the comments, is that, even with the cost of living adjustment that some make in bigger cities, it generally doesn’t make up for the true difference to live in an expensive place over an inexpensive place, at least monetarily. Some make the choice to take the financial hit to have access to big city life or mountains/ocean, and a select few make so much in these expensive places that the ridiculously high costs don’t matter.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > fintail 10/14/2020 at 13:52

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Yup there’s no use in arguing with the libertarians - nothing is ever good enough for them, and they are way too angry about too many things that they can’t describe to have a sensible discussion. But yes in general they’re what I refer to as hipster republicans - pretty much republicans but too cool to admit it.

But everybody else - left of center who doesn’t vote with the democrats at this point, be it bernie bros or the greens. What the hell are you thinking. If you’re too poor or your ability to vote is being suppressed beyond belief I get it. But if you’re making an active decision to not vote, or throw your vote away it not only fails to achieve your preferred outcome - it is verifiably resulting in an outcome far worse than what even the closest alternative would’ve been.

And yes due to this current administration and what we the people have allowed them to get away with we will have a couple of generations enduring crap we otherwise wouldn’t have needed to. I’m OK with that, just infuriating that my child and her children will have to pay for these shortsighted mistakes our generations have been making. Climate and clean energy is quickly becoming one of my main fears - the lack of action on the topic is frightening, and it’s not even hidden anymore that we’re doing this specifically to keep the oil industry profitable and alive. 

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/14/2020 at 22:50

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Here’s the thing about Australia. You generally get compensated more if you have a corporate, government or mining job in regional Australia. This is primarily because very few skilled people want to live here - Australia is one of the most urbanised populations of any of the developed nations. Therefore, our employers often need to offer substantial carrots ( in terms of both pay and, more likely, conditions)   to entice potential employees out of their subu rban dream. Those who can’t (like local government) aren’t able to fill their positions or do so with inexperienced or poorly qualified people who only last a few years before moving on to somewhere much better paid...

The cost of living in most of our capital cities are not that dissimilar either...apart from Darwin, which is as expensive as Sydney. So there's not much point varying wages to suit each of them even if you are a nationwide corporate.

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/14/2020 at 23:20

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That’s a good way to look at libertarians - angry. They offer little in the way of working towards a solution, just pointing out what is wrong. Hipster Rs is also a good one - they think they are better than the existing GOP, and in some ways might actually be, but they still usually vote in that direction.

People need to grow up. You can’t always get a candidate you like. I didn’t care much for Hillary, but she was the lesser evil. I am not in love with Biden, but he is easier to embrace than his opponent. There might be a bitter pill to deal with before real progress exists. Had more voted sensibly in 2016 - even if it meant picking someone they don’t love, we might not have this obscene mess today.

I am more concerned with socio-economics these days.  Economic mobility has withered compared to many competitive nations, and the population seems to be expanding faster than decent wage jobs.  Not a way to make a bright future, not to mention make things “great again” by those who pine for when the working class had something to stand on.  The regime now abuses the environment and the lot of actual working people both, just to enrich a few.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > fintail 10/15/2020 at 15:01

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Yeah that’s absolutely a huge concern. We’re severely underinvesting in educating our population and in emerging industries - the rest of the world is going to fill that void (and enjoy the economic benefits) in our absence. It’s definitely something to be concerned about in the short to medium horizon, along with the climate related impacts that we are exacerbating for the longer run. With good planning we can work on all these topics through a good long term plan, but our current leadership has zero interest in laying that groundwork.

Recently read an article (think it was an NYT opinion piece) about voting third party...something along the lines of “voting isn’t like marriage where you can simply just hold out for a better fit. Whether you play along or not, the rest of the population is going to make a decision for you.” So it’s up to us to use our votes wisely in a manner that takes us more in the direction we want to go, if not necessarily to the exact place. 

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/15/2020 at 23:36

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Education is a huge issue. The public school system - a hallmark of any legitimately developed society - is under attack by the for-profit charter cult, and I’ve even read college enrollment is down. These movements don’t bode well. First world “Socialist” nations have been kicking American butt in terms of quality of life, and if education continues to sag, this will only get worse. Current leadership wants to make this societal aspect even worse - DeVos is simply deplorable.

Voting third party isn’t just throwing away a vote, it is often enabling the party you least prefer.  Nobody truly hates both equally - they need to get over not having a president they will love, and simply choose the one who will create the least damage.